Dancing from Reality

Psy has the Conservapedia angle well covered and now he has “Jesus” to keep an eye on as well, so I will be looking for my own host of loonies to cover on this prestigious blog. To that ends I would like to introduce you to James I. Nienhuis.

Nienhuis, like our good friend Andrew Schlafly, has thrown off the shackles of enlightenment placed him by an Ivy-League education and found the truth in a book written between 2600 and 2400 years ago, by a group of intelligent and well educated people, at least compared to the goat-headers they governed. Why did they get to govern the goat-headers you may ask? God told them they had to, it was in the book he dictated to them. How do they know the book was dictated by God? It said so in the book that all the intelligent and educated people could read. There is a latter edition of this book produced by some of Alan’s friends and that is the one our friend Nienhuis reads, although he seems to rarely seems get passed the first chapter.

Now I don’t want to leave you with the impression that Nienhuis is narrow minded, not at all. To the contrary he is very well read. He seems almost obsessed with Plato’s Timaeus and Critias holding them nearly (but not quite) to the same level of respect as the guide to goat-headers governance. Although more specifically, he enjoys Plato’s description of the ancient civilization of Atlantis. Now most people see Atlantis as an allegory used by Plato to discuss politics and the roles of government and power. Nienhuis sees it for what it “really” is, evidence for the flood.

However in Nienhuis’ eyes Plato slipped up. Plato puts the sinking of Atlantis at 9,600 BC (or 401 HE in my preferred calendar). However as Nienhuis explains Atlantis was sunk at 1,500 BC (8501 HE) because that fits better with the Bible. Now I am about to link to one of Nienhuis’ articles for the first time so be warned, his article titles make no sense. I have two hypotheses why this is; first of all, he could be a modern day Joyce writing a stream of consciousness about the article, or alternatively, he is attempting search engine optimization. Nienhuis instead places the sinking of Atlantis as an event connected with the end of the “Ice Age”, which he places at the aforementioned date.

Plato describes bronze age ships, architecture and metallurgy in the Atlantis story, so obviously his 9600 b.c. date was mistaken, and by how much? The submerged megalithic ruins found throughout the Mediterranean and eastern Atlantic also bespeak so-called bronze age construction, and that my friends puts the end of the ice age at circa 1500 b.c., when the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt coincidentally manifested.

Nienhuis’ interpretation of flood geology is the creationist standard. The warmer flood waters “heated from below” evaporated, leading to the higher precipitation rate, this in turn lead to glaciation and the Ice Age, which caused the lowering of sea-levels, all the marsupials followed the Aboriginals to Australia, the Ice Age ended and the sea levels raised to their current level (okay I added a few things but that is in essence the thesis). Nienhuis, like most creationists, is also a global-warming denier. Now some of you may notice the remarkable overlap between this story and the current theories of climate change. This is completely coincidental and record snow falls should always be pointed at as all the evidence you need against global warming, warmer ocean temperatures only lead to increased precipitation once and that was after Noah’s flood.

Besides flood geology, Nienhuis also uses Plato to connect groups of people you had previously thought of as unrelated. As he explains the Maya were descended from the Canaanites:

This trans mediterranean and atlantic connection by seafaring can be proven with the letters a-t-l in the word Atlas; the proof is that those three letters a-t-l meant water from ancient Canaan, the homeland of the ice age Sidonians, whose father Sidon was (yes) Posidon, all the way to the Americas where a-t-l meant water in the Mexicans’ ancient homeland’s name, Atlan.

When Nienhuis is not using Plato to write an alternative history of America and prove flood geology or being a global warming denialist, he participates in a little numerology (and once again Atlantis is used as an explanation). At this point it is pretty clear that Nienhuis is a crank magnet, so it is with little surprise find out that he is also a teabagger and a birther.

Nienhuis is a gift that keeps giving, he has written two self-published books Ice Age Civilizations and Old Earth? Why Not!. I have pdf copies of both of these and shall be reviewing them in time. Really this is too easy.

About Pi

Normally known as π on RationalWiki. A mathematics PhD student with an unhealthy interest in politics and religion.
This entry was posted in Birthers, Climate Change, Creationism, James I. Nienhuis, Teabagger and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

66 Responses to Dancing from Reality

  1. PsyGremlin says:

    Wow, they really do keep building a better idiot, don’t they. Love how people like Nienhuis and Hurlbut keep twisting realist and history to fit their worldview. Also great point about the warmer ocean/ice age link – funny how it’s not relevant today…

    • Pi says:

      What I like is that the idiots are now connected enough that a grand pseudoscience synthesis is being built. The failure to document this to me has been my greatest disappointment with RationalWiki. I had wanted to use their flood geology article but it was little better than a stub. I find it ironic that we accuse creationist of attacking old science and we are merely debunking old god-of-the-gap arguments that are not the current creationist teaching.

      Sterile was the only other person interested in documenting creation science as it currently exists but he has scaled back his contributions. Pity that RW is currently embroiled in a giant dick-off and that a lot of the members are happier with snark than actually addressing what is being preached by Creation Science ministries.

      • PsyGremlin says:

        That’s actually a good point you raise, and something that RW has neglected. Sadly, my own scientific knowledge isn’t enough to write refutations. I’ll drop a note in the Saloon and see what happens.

        • Pi says:

          Good luck with that. Most people seem more interested in writing about current US mainstream politics than stuff closer to the mission.

  2. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Thanks for the link, good stuff.

    • Pi says:

      They are all tagged nofollow.

    • PsyGremlin says:

      Hey! At least somebody reads you, right?

      Seriously though James, I’d love to hear how you deny climate change – for example warmer oceans leading to record snowfalls this year, and yet that’s the same message you use to explain your post-Flood ice age.

      It’s as silly as Terry Hurlbut claiming the continents moved into position *after* the flood (because tectonic plates are another liberal lie) – that’s some serious speed were talking about there – not to mention the upheaval it would have caused. Funny how it’s not mentioned by anybody.

      For that matter, where’s the mention of the ice age in the Bible?

      • Pi says:

        It was because the plate tectonic were speeding around so fast that the water got warm.

        The Ice Age wasn’t mentioned directly, but due to the Ice Age it was too cold to live in Europe hence why everyone was living together in Babel.

        • Gct says:

          (Pardon, just a little input from a passerby) We just had snow here before halloween. Knocked out the entire state. If it had been warming, it would have been rain. Nothing unusual about rain in October. Snow is unusual. I’ve been watching temps going down for the last 5 or 6 yrs, not up. A few yrs ago, I was wearing a winter coat on the 4th of July. Ever since, wearing winter coats well into May and even til June. That doesn’t strike me as global warming.

          Recent news:
          (this is the second time the GW pushers have been caught)

          Another interesting article: (its an older link from 2008, but still works)
          (You might enjoy slide 2 of the ‘climate basics’ presentation showing various news headlines over the last century where scientist flip-flopped from ‘ice-age coming’ to ‘melt-down coming’ 3 or 4 times. I even remember being taught ‘ice-age coming’ in grade school back in the 70’s. By the way, the word ‘denier’ is a thought token only, and not the exclusive commodity of creationists. The above org is a bunch of old-earthers and evolutionists, but good at what they do either way.)

          I also do not know of any creationist or conservative that doubts plate tectonics. Only that creationists would obviously doubt the millions of yrs for a pangea separation. Im not familiar with Hurlbut, but if its similar to Walt Browns hydroplate theory, then there’s no claim that continents moved half way around the globe. Only that plates moved substantially more than usual during the flood, and that upheavals (ie; mountains rising, valleys sinking) likely then occurred. Also, when you say “not mentioned by anybody”, who (in terms of the biblical account) was left to tell of it ? If large scale tectonics occurred simultaneously with the flood, not even Noah would have seen it or even felt it through the water while sealed in a boat. The only mention of mountains rising and valleys sinking are in Psalms. Yet there are hundreds of ancient flood legends throughout the world. Also, the ‘ice-age’ likely didn’t cover the entire planet, probably not the mediterranean, middle-east area anyway.

          • PsyGremlin says:

            Ok, before I even try and respond to yet another “it’s cold outside, so there’s no global warming” moron, run along and learn the difference between “weather” and “climate.” You write stuff like “A few yrs ago, I was wearing a winter coat on the 4th of July. Ever since, wearing winter coats well into May and even til June. That doesn’t strike me as global warming” and yet you’d rather jam chop sticks into your ears than discuss climate change.

            It’s irony. One day I’ll explain it to you.

  3. dancingfromgenesis says:

    The warmer ocean duirng the ice age is not relevant today because the warmer ocean for the ice age was heated from Noah’s Flood. Any real global warming by solar increase is negated by the production of greater cloudcover.

    Refer to category Atlantis Revealed and then tell me who’s the real idiot.

  4. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Cooling shade and rainfall.

    • Pi says:

      That is dependent on whether you get low or high atmosphere clouds. Sure the thicker low atmosphere clouds might have some cooling effect, but high atmosphere clouds provide little to no shade and just trap heat in, heat that goes to warming the atmosphere.

      As the world warms there will be less low cloud formation as that requires cooler temperature ans there will be more high cloud formation, trapping more heat in and the great circle will continue.

      • Gct says:

        (More passerby input) Its correct, but not complete to say that clouds require cooler temperatures. What is needed is to have a temp cooler than where the humidity started such that the dew point is reached. That can occur in a hot climate as well as a cool one. The reducing temperature gradient in the troposphere will always be there either way, before the stratosphere begins to reverse it. All that is needed then is condensation nuclei and cloud formation is inevitable. Also, with few exceptions, all clouds occur in this lowest atmospheric level, because the increasing gradient of the stratosphere stalls out most convection. So, to mention low or high cloud reflectivity is irrelevant. Even the IPCC will tell you that cloud aerosols will do more to scatter and reflect incoming light than trap heat in.

  5. dancingfromgenesis says:

    By the way, on the “birther” issue, just google Frank Marshall Davis Obama, who does he look like?

  6. dancingfromgenesis says:

    If you can’t glean the point, then try again, you can do it.

    • PsyGremlin says:

      Wow, you birthers are really something. There’s no birth certificate!! Oh wait, there is… um… he’s not a natural born citizen… oh wait he is… he’s Frank Marshall Davis’ son.

      Which ironically – if your crackpot theory is true – does make him a natural born citizen. Or is there something in the constitution about a bastard can’t be Pres.

      Face it – you have a black man in the White House. Get over it. Your ongoing flailing only makes you look more ridiculous.

      • dancingfromgenesis says:

        Do you really think Obama would have received the nomination if the democrat party electorate had known his father in reality was a communist poet sex perv from Chicago? And would they have not been concerned that he covered this up?

        • PsyGremlin says:

          Said cover-up being planned in 1961?
          That’s some serious forward planning.

          • dancingfromgenesis says:

            Who’s to say things weren’t changed? Can you really say Barack Sr. looks like the biological father rather than FMD?

          • Pi says:

            Lets see narrower jaw, more pointed chin, more pronounced cheek bones. Yes I would say Obama does indeed look more similar to Obama sr than Davis. As I said above Davis looks more like Dr. Dre than Obama.

      • Gct says:

        My guess is that you wouldn’t have voted for Herman Cain if he continued his campaign, and he’s 5 times as black as BO, so what’s your point ?

        • PsyGremlin says:

          I wouldn’t have voted for Cain because he was monumentally ill-equipped for the job – to put it mildly. Then again, looking at the rest of the clown car of candidates, there’s not much difference. At least they kept their peckers in their pants. Oh yes, and because I’m not a Yank.

  7. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Your feigned density reveals obfuscation.

    • PsyGremlin says:

      Ah, the old creationist trick – if you can’t beat them with facts, insult them. Do you guys all go to the same school to learn these tactics?

      • dancingfromgenesis says:

        Well you were feigning density.

      • Gct says:

        Yes, I suppose we all should have taken a lesson from the fine example of style and graciousness you and your sort have consistently bestowed upon us. Refer to your own prologue. You people speak as though insulting, self-assured arrogance were a virtue.

  8. dancingfromgenesis says:

    By the way, as you insinuate that iron age goat herders put the old testament together, think again seeker, see article #13 at http://genesisveracity.com. Why do you suppose all the ancient tribes had legends of the global flood, coincidence?

    • Pi says:

      Because the ancient Israelites were for all intents and purposes Canaanites? I do intend to discuss biblical authorship on my other blog when I start it.

      • dancingfromgenesis says:

        Canaan was a son of Ham, Eber (Hebrew) of Shem’s progeny, no commonality there but by Noah and his wife at the genetic bottleneck.

        • Pi says:

          I don’t know where you should start linguists or archeology, but I think you will find that the kingdoms of Israel and Judah are both members of the Canaanite culture.

          But actually research is hard, it is much easier to sit at home and write biblical fan fiction. How many Greek gods were children of Ham?

          • dancingfromgenesis says:

            Quite a few, Cronus (Ham), Atlas, Posidon (Sidon) for instance, and don’t forget those Pelasgians!

          • dancingfromgenesis says:

            The jewish history book states otherwise, what does the canaanite history book say?

            • PsyGremlin says:

              Probably not a lot, given as how the Canaanites suffered from a rather virulent form of genocide, on the orders of… oh yes, your god.

          • Pi says:

            Actually non-Israeli/Judahan Canaanites were destroyed by the Assyrian Empire. Southern Israelis moved south to Judah, but eventually were still conquered. It was at this time the Bible was complied into a single book. The reason there is a “jewish history book” was an attempt by the Priest to maintain their cultural identity whilst they were in exile in Babylon.

      • Gct says:

        What exactly is the evidence that supports this ? You wouldn’t have known anything about Canaanites if it weren’t for the Bible. It almost sounds like you’re relying upon the validity of the Bible in order to discredit it.

        • Gct says:

          “. . . Rather virulent form of genocide . . .” Ah yes – this one I’ve heard before – the Bible is completely accurate when its good for pointing a finger at God – but a pack of lies otherwise. BTW the Canaanites were no angels either.

          • Pi says:

            Historical documents are judged in many ways. One way why would the person be saying this if it was untrue? If you are saying something bad about yourself, i.e, “we killed a shit load of people because we felt like it”, that is not in the author’s bias towards themselves, therefore we can infer it is more likely to be true. If the author says “we gave their children toys” and we find an absence of toy manufacturing equipment in their camps, we might infer they were making the story up.

          • PsyGremlin says:

            Hey, all I’m doing is repeating the stories in there (in Deuteronomy and Joshua) – it’s you guys that take them all as *ahem* gospel truth. If you want to bow down before a psychotic maniac, that’s your lookout.

            And not being an angel is grounds for genocide is it?

        • Pi says:

          The existence of the Canaanites is well established in both archaeological evidence, as well as, in the records of neighbouring groups such as the Assyria. If you would like a discussion on the history of the Canaanites and how the Israelites are in fact just a subgroup, I would recommend The Bible Unearthed.

  9. dancingfromgenesis says:

    King Solomon became the richest man in the world circa 950 b.c., with much cooperation from some canaanites (phoenicians) who lived on the coast, the canaanites in the highlands had been vanquished by Joshua four centuries previously.

    If anyone could claim the Holy Land today, besides the hebrews, it would be canaanites, but who today can trace their lineage back to Canaan?

  10. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Why not?

  11. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Today’s hebrews trace their history way back through Genesis, but there are no canaanites today, nor any record from them of their short lived history, so what more do you need to know?

    • Pi says:

      Your adherence to Biblical literalism renders this discussion pointless. All modern scholarship places the Israelites as a subfamily of the Canaanites and Hebrew as the last spoken language from that area. There is no archaeological evidence that indicts that the Israelites lived outside Israel and Judah before the fall of the Second Temple. Their is no evidence for the Exodus ever taking place. I do how ever think the Jews have claims to the land as their ancestral homeland. By that same measure I think the native Americans have claims to parts of the US.

      • Gct says:

        You also removed yourself from objectivity by inference of your first sentence. Modern scholarship ? You mean ‘the good ole boys club’? If evidence did exist, would you or your colleagues recognize it, or ignore it, or try to explain it away ? If, lets say, things like chariot wheels on the bottom of the red sea, or cliff paintings of a golden calf near a burnt mountain, or rocks split in half by obvious signs of water pressure were found, would you include these as evidence supporting the exodus ? Probably not. You would say they indicate something else, and then continue claiming a lack of evidence for the Bible. Furthermore, a lack of evidence does not disprove anything. There is a book that is much older than anyone on earth or any nation in its present form. It is evidence. If it had been any other book, scrap, or shard, you would have accepted it as such. It is also pointless for anyone to speak with authority upon subjects from which they are thousands of years removed such that the book should be rendered untrue. That same modern scholarship cant even tell me what happened in their own back yard 2 days ago while they weren’t there, nor can you. Only arrogance can assume oneself to be so omniscient.

  12. dancingfromgenesis says:

    Haha, the evidence speaks for itself!

    • Pi says:

      If you are going to ignore all the other threads of evidence and concentrate only on a book that is counter to the physical evidence available then sure.

      • dancingfromgenesis says:

        Where is the canaanite book of history? Since there is none, and you say that you have all the physical evidence for authentic canaanite history (names, places, and dates please, as the old testament provides), outline it all for us, like your own little book of canaanite history. Perhaps you should write such a tome, but ‘though would you footnote the Bible (haha), perhaps stooping to the lineages in Genesis 10?

        Did you know that the Jebusites controlled Jerusalem before David took it? Google Jebusites Jerusalem, and off you go.

        • PsyGremlin says:

          Here’s a question: Given how you rely on a bronze-age fair tale… oh sorry “Book of Israelite History”, please can you explain how certain things aren’t backed up in the historical record.

          For example – the Egyptians were phenomenal record keepers, and yet there isn’t a single mention of them keeping Israelites as slaves, not a single mention of the plagues and certainly not a single mention of a Pharaoh drowning in red sea.


          • Google Ipuwer Papyrus climate change, and if the hebrews had not come out of Egypt as they meticulously recorded, then why did not the egyptians contest that history for centuries?

            And since you think the egyptians were such great historians, then why did they tell Solon that bronze age technology was robust circa 9600 b.c. per their Atlantis story?

          • Google Ipuwer Papyrus climate change, and if the hebrews had not come out of Egypt as they meticulously recorded, then why did not the egyptians contest that history for centuries?

            And since you think the egyptians were such great historians, then why did they tell Solon that bronze age technology was robust circa 9600 b.c. per their Atlantis story?

            I think Menes was Menestheo/Mnseus, a son of Sidon (Posidon in Plato’s account), a canaanite, so those hamites dominated the egyptian coast during the ice age before Menouthis (with Heraklion) submerged when the ice age ended, the time of the Exodus; you could say those were phoenicians who handled the coast (and delta really with Menes king having united canaanite with misraim, the north with the south as was written).

          • Pi says:

            Google Ipuwer Papyrus climate change, and if the hebrews had not come out of Egypt as they meticulously recorded, then why did not the egyptians contest that history for centuries?

            Wow you are the master of logic aren’t you.

            A claims P is true
            B says P is not true
            Therefore P is true

          • Gct says:

            Perhaps you’re looking in a preferred historical record. The egyptians couldn’t have been all that phenomenal at record keeping, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much controversy surrounding egyptian chronology. There are paintings showing slaves inside of egyptian tombs. Furthermore, kings aren’t likely to record their own defeats and humiliations.
            Can you explain to me why anyone would make up such a story ? Why would any people invent so much ill-favored history for themselves instead of the usual self-aggrandizing approach ? Why are there hundreds of flood legends in the world ? The OT finished 400 yrs before Jesus contains hundreds of accurate prophecies of him. How is that ? Why were cleanliness and quarantining practices prescribed nearly 3.5 millennia before bacteria was discovered . . . control freaks gone wild ?

      • Gct says:

        What is the physical evidence ?

  13. dancingfromgenesis says:

    That’s the weakest rebuttal in the history of the world.

    Have you yet read about the desertification described in the Ipuwer Papyrus written circa 1300 b.c.?

    Such as Amos Nur of Stanford say Menouthis was consumed by the sea because the city slid out five miles on a roller coaster ride of loose sediments, how’s that for desperation to explain the obvious fact that Menouthis, along with Heraklion, and Yarmuta up the coast, along with many other cites, were consumed by the sea when the sea level rose, that was the end of the ice age, right?

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